[[ From the Dry Run 5/5/16 ]]
Rennali S. (GM):
Just setting up the board and some things.
Lutharias: Just waiting on Harpin to get back from work?
Rennali S. (GM): Okay, so the Generic Bad Guy Tokens are what the "bad guy" tokens should look like during encounters.
Ours will have BLUE to indicate our dudes and RED to indicate their dudes.
Onyx: so these are the new tokens?
Rennali S. (GM): They may be. I wasn't happy with trying to do the dynamic poses.
Ledaria Dawntreader: I like them, reminds me of when I used to do roll20 D&D games
Onyx: with floating heads instead of overhead dudes
Rennali S. (GM): For tonight, the Bad Guy tokens will have more HP, just to make sure that the classes are at least somewhat balanced.
Onyx: we need practice dummies :B
Rennali S. (GM): P much
Go ahead and roll for turn. 1D100
rolling 1D100
(25)= 25
rolling 1D100
(72)= 72
rolling 1D100
(87)= 87
Lutharias: rolling 1D100
(19)= 19
Rennali S. (GM): rolling 1D100
(51)= 51
Onyx: rolling 1d100
(50)= 50
Rennali S. (GM): One second here...
Generic Bad Guy 1 Moves 15 ft. and does standard attack to Ledaria [2H Greataxe: 1D10 + Strength + 4 Attack]
Rennali S. (GM): I am going to assume Strength is just 2.
rolling 1D10+2+4
(10)+2+4= 16
Onyx: What are we going with for defense?
Lutharias: I think it might be a wise idea for us to finish filling out character sheets before we start the run.
Rennali S. (GM): Depends. You have two armor choices.
Light Armor (Padded Cloth): +1 Defense / +2 Mana
Onyx: I went with padded clothh
Rennali S. (GM): Okay, then it would hit you for 15.
Onyx: ok
Rennali S. (GM): Just for the sake of things, go ahead and fling a spell at Bad Guy 1.
Looking at this, I may change that 40ft radius to 30.
Ledaria Dawntreader flings an arcane bolt at Generic Bad Guy 1 [Standard Staff Attack]
Ledaria Dawntreader: rolling 1d10+9
(4)+9= 13
Lutharias: Radius for Wizards is 40/30.
Rennali S. (GM): 2H Wooden Staff: 1D10 + Intellect + 2 Attack
Ledaria Dawntreader: 1d10 + 7 int + 2 Attack
Lutharias: Oh. Nevermind.
Ledaria Dawntreader: so 9 total
Lutharias: 30/60
Rennali S. (GM): Got ya.
Yeah, I was thinking of shortening the distance a bit.
Lutharias: I think it'd be better if we wrote out the entire formula so that we don't confuse the GM.
Rennali S. (GM): Bad Guy has 6 Defense with Split Mail so you hit for 7.
Ledaria Dawntreader: lemme test something
Rennali S. (GM): Go for it
Ledaria Dawntreader: rolling 1d10+7+2
(5)+7+2= 14
ok that still works
Rennali S. (GM): Luther, fling something at one of the bad guys
Lutharias flings his shield like Captain America at Bad Guy 1 since he's otherwise out of range.
Lutharias: rolling 1d10+7+2
(3)+7+2= 12
Rennali S. (GM): With Defense, you hit for 6.
I want to try a cleric heal here rq.
1H Mace / Shield: 1D5 + Intellect +2 Healing
rolling 1D5+7+2
(1)+7+2= 10
Heals Dari for 10
Lutharias: Oh boy...
Heals could be a problem.
Rennali S. (GM): How so?
Lutharias: Okay, suppose your roll had been the same as mine since the rest of the formula is roughly the same.
3 + 7 + 2 = 12 12 damage. ... Which is mitigated by defense. for a total of 6.
A heal takes no mitigation so effectively, if the bad guys had a healer, they would always be able to out heal the damage output.
Ledaria Dawntreader: damage is lessened due to defense. heals don't have to worry about that
or what luther said
Rennali S. (GM): Yeah, I can see that.
What would you suggest?
Lutharias: Also -- we haven't even gotten to mana yet.
Ledaria Dawntreader: The biggest offender is the stat mod
try making it 1d5+2 for now
Rennali S. (GM): So remove the stat mod?
Lutharias: But Luther has an intellect of 6 and if our mana pool is measured off Intellect ..
he's wearing Plate Armor which is - 6 mana.... So .. effectively, his mana pool is 0 and he can use no abilities.
BUT!
Ledaria Dawntreader: but that's my suggestion
Lutharias: Back to the topic.
Rennali S. (GM): rolling 1D5+2
(1)+2= 3
So for the weapons, take out the mod stat...
Lutharias: For healing?
Rennali S. (GM): Yeah.
Lutharias: That could work.
Rennali S. (GM): Well, what I am thinking is, take out the attack bonus and just have it be the stat.
Rennali S. (GM): What do you think?
Ledaria Dawntreader: so an attack roll would be 1d10+stat?
Lutharias: I'm thinking that that makes it a bit more static.
And... eh...
Lutharias: I'm not a fan of everything being static -- I like some character diversity.
brb
back
Rennali S. (GM): The other option is doing away with "standard" rolls and making the weapon choices become the various rolls.
I.e., the staff can be 1D10 + stat or the Mace / Shield can be 2D7 + Stat
And then doing away with the attack bonus entirely.
Like if I were to heal with the Mace / Shield, it would be
rolling 2D7+7
(5+7)+7= 19
Rennali S. (GM): rolling 1D5+7
(5)+7= 12
Harpin Cornwell: In most Table top games the weapons DO determine the roll
Lutharias: Exactly.
Rennali S. (GM): So would we want to strike "standard roll" and make the weapons determine the roll?
Harpin Cornwell: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons
Rennali S. (GM): (Bear in mind I have only played D&D once)
Ledaria Dawntreader: I thought that's what we were doing the whole time when I saw "weapons" in the class listings >>
Harpin Cornwell: Typically, in games like D&D and Pathfinder
Rennali S. (GM): o.o I'm sorry I am dumb.
Harpin Cornwell: Its the weapon plus the corresponding modifier from your stats add to the roll for hit and damage.
Ledaria Dawntreader: I mean, I didn't see a "standard" roll
Harpin Cornwell: Well, typically there is the roll to hit which is against AC
But still
Rennali S. (GM): Oh, it's the first thing beneath all of the classes.
Ledaria Dawntreader: I saw the weapon and assumed that was the "standard roll"
Lutharias: Here's what I'm going to propose and it's going to probably piss people off because the roll system was just designed already.
Keep the Defense stat and change the rule on participation points -- make a point cap on certain stats.
Rennali S. (GM): I can change the weapon rolls and all of that.
The idea of this is to wring out the kinks, so if major changes need to be made, then so be it.
Ledaria Dawntreader: yeah, this is why it's a playtest and not a real event :D
we're trying to find all the things that work and the things that don't
Lutharias: Well, I'm just putting it out there because Renna spent 3 days trying to revamp the system.
Rennali S. (GM): The idea of Defense I think should be left up to the chosen armor and as you progress,
you have the option of upgrading that armor to increase defense.
Only because I do agree that putting points into it could cause someone to become the Unstoppable Force.
I mean, we can
Ledaria Dawntreader: I like the idea of armor providing protection more than a specific stat
Lutharias: I still think there should be a stat that adds to it. In AD&D, Dexerity would add points to the Armor Class bonus.
Ledaria Dawntreader: though maybe turn the Defense stat into something akin to constitution that adds HP?
Rennali S. (GM): How would that work?
Lutharias: Eh...
Defense is supposed to serve as a mitigation for damage and additional HP doesn't really focus that.
It was always nice to have a tank that had high HP, but I remember tanks having high HP in games like Baldur's Gate and
I hated the fact that I always had to heal them up constantly.
Get a tank with high Armor Class though, it mitigates the need to heal entirely.
Ledaria Dawntreader: another thing is that AC or something akin to it don't really work in these sort of systems,
especially when you get more people involved. It adds a lot of extra time through misses and nullified attacks that
people may not necessarily have as events go on later
does First Light have its own roll20 system?
Lutharias: Taking away damage mitigation was a mistake in our last system.
Rennali S. (GM): Probably, but I've never seen it.
Lutharias: I think the defense worked out fine in the last game.
Our Orc players just got screwed because they didn't place high numbers in defense and they didn't have a healer.
Rennali S. (GM): I don't want people to be too overpowered, but I don't want them to feel like they have to constantly struggle to get anywhere.
I also want them to progress
Ledaria Dawntreader: it worked out fine for us because we were the team that had high defense
Lutharias: Speaking as a guy who's toon got down to the lowest health without dying in the last event, I think the Defense worked fine.
That's exactly what I just said, Ledaria.
However.
If Amiyna (who had low defense) had taken one high roll blast from that cannon, she was a gonner.
Ledaria Dawntreader: what I'm saying is, what if the situation was reversed? What if Team Ork had guys
with lots of defense and we were just chipping away at them for 1-3 damage a pop?
Lutharias: So it's all about where you place you rolls in what stat and who you decide to attack.
They were chipping away at about 5 - 6 damage a pop.
We would have been doing the same thing if their defense had been higher.
Rennali S. (GM): I think if Defense is chosen based on the armor, it makes it more balanced because then it is a
choice of the player versus the mercy of RNGeesus.
Ledaria Dawntreader: I agree
damage mitigation is good, but you don't want it getting out of hand
Lutharias: I'm not saying that stat alone should determine it.
Rennali S. (GM): RNGeesus was good to us and shitty for Team Ork, which made it almost feel purposefully one-sided.
Lutharias: I just think that having a standard across the board would leave us at the mercy of the RNGeesus on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Instead of praying for a low attack by the enemy, you're praying that you roll a high attack for yourself.
Rennali S. (GM): So should some armor actually increase strength and give little Defense?
Ledaria Dawntreader: you're always praying for a high roll for yourself :P
Lutharias: Of course.
But you'll be doing prostrations instead of just praying.
:P
What I think is we should have a stat (a low stat) that we can put for Defense + Armor type.
Like... instead of having Harpin's unkillable 12 defense... turn it down to about 3 or 4.. plus the armor he wears.
Ledaria Dawntreader: (keep in mind that systems I've played in the past for RP systems, even independent from WoW,
have HEAVILY leaned in favor of offense being more powerful than defense/healing)
Lutharias: That way, the GM can mess with the effects of stats while still giving a fighting chance.
Ledaria Dawntreader: so I'm coming from that sort of perspective
Rennali S. (GM): Can you give an example, Luth?
Lutharias: Okay -- example... Seven Deadly Sins boss in Bogwater.
Ledaria Dawntreader: that was an intense fight
Lutharias: Suppose the "defense" stat was set at 4 for a tank character.. and tank character wore Full Plate for 8 ...
So... Armor Class for that guy is
4 + 8 = 12
SDS boss makes an effect... say... Pride. Pride makes the effected character Prideful and causes him to drop his defense --
his defense would be reduced to 0 but his Armor would remain 8.. So his overall Armor Class would be
Lutharias: 0 + 8 = 8 ... Making him slightly more squishy.
By the same token...
We could have squishy characters like Amiyna who would have say.. a defense stat of 1 with Padded armor for total Armor class of 2
1 + 1 =2
Could have like some Titan artifact give a defense buff that increases a chosen character's defense stat by 4... So the AC becomes
Lutharias:
5 + 1 = 6.
Rennali S. (GM): Wait, didn't you just say drop Harpin's God Tier from 12? You just made it 12 again with that...
And then said that if the boss decided to reduce it (which assuming a boss has that ability) it would be.
Otherwise, in every encounter, he would still have the 12.
Lutharias: More of a fighting chance to survive.
Rennali S. (GM): I am starting from the bottom here, so no one is getting a titan Artifact atm.
Lutharias: Yeah, but you can fuck with his AC by fucking with his stat instead of telling him "Harpin, lose your armor."
Rennali S. (GM): I am confused.
Lutharias: It's just a buff from a certain encounter.
-_-
Like the Titan Defense buff in the Sha of Pride fight.
That fight has a lot of buffs an debuffs in it.
It effects the stats rather than the armor itself.
Rennali S. (GM): That's an anal fuckton of math that can get really complicated real quickly.
Especially if someone isn't paying attention.
Then we would all have to go back and redo the math for what the rolls would actually be.
Ledaria Dawntreader: generally speaking
Lutharias shrugs.
Lutharias: Okay
Ledaria Dawntreader: the math should be as easy to deal with as possible
Rennali S. (GM): I might just be misreading something.
Ledaria Dawntreader: overcomplicate things and you end up with confused players and GM's
Rennali S. (GM): Or just really misunderstanding.
Lutharias: Well, to deal with it as easily as possible, just make everything completely static and all we have to worry about is the /rolls
Rennali S. (GM): Really?
Lutharias: If you made everyone's stats the same -- or just got rid of stats all together, then all you have to do is worry about the /rolls that people do.
That's the easiest way of handling the math.
Ledaria Dawntreader: the best way to diversify things is through ability use, weapon choice, and armor choice. And tie classes with "roles"
like, the tanking role has added defense, healer role has buffed heals, damage role has buffed attacks
Lutharias: Dude, that's what I've been preaching the entire time, but I've been told that that's overcomplicating things.
Rennali S. (GM): What part of: I haven't done this and I am just confused are you having trouble understanding?
Your example did not help me to understand.
Ledaria Dawntreader: I don't think there's anything wrong with dumping stats entirely
Ledaria Dawntreader: if you choose to go that route
Rennali S. (GM): Would dumping them help, though?
Because we did that once before in a previous time and there were a lot of complaints.
Lutharias: That's what we did in our last system -- I personally didn't like it.
Ledaria Dawntreader: Is there an archive somewhere of the last system? I don't remember it offhand. Or maybe that was from when i wasn't around.
Harpin Cornwell: I too, do not really recall the older system
Ledaria Dawntreader: you can also do other things to reduce RNG's influence. like adding modifiers to static abilities
or making their dice say, 2d10 instead of 1d20
Harpin Cornwell: ^
Ledaria Dawntreader: same max result (20), but it's far more likely to get, on average, a better result.
Lutharias: brb
Ledaria Dawntreader: now i'm getting flashbacks to AP Stats class in high school @_@
Rennali S. (GM): Unfortunately, it would take me the better part of an hour to find the archive.
Ledaria Dawntreader: don't sweat it, then
Lutharias: Mages attack in that was 1d10
Fury Warrior was 2d5.
Rennali S. (GM): So, we can agree to drop "standard dice" and instead make the weapons be the dice rolls themselves.
We can take away the stat bonuses to them and instead put stat bonuses to armor?
Lutharias: And I remember people getting pissed that Fury warriors potentially had a higher change of getting more damage that mages.
No defense, not mitigation, nothing.
Ledaria Dawntreader: did this system have any sort of movement rules?
Rennali S. (GM): No
Ledaria Dawntreader: because those alone can balance a system out greatly when you're using something like roll20.
mages having a somewhat weaker attack is balanced out by range advantage
Lutharias: Eh... Not really, no.
Ledaria Dawntreader: fury warrior has to get upclose in personal and thus more likely to get punched back in return
Lutharias: All the fights we had, Mages ended up being the punching bags because we had smart bosses.
And the one time I introduced Gavinaugh as a fury warrrior, folks got pissed that he was doing more damage.
Harpin Cornwell: Meanwhile
Rennali S. (GM): Movement is going to be something we will have and I want knight (tankies) and fighters to be able to have to be upclose to do damage.
Harpin Cornwell: Harpin hsa just rolled face
Rennali S. (GM): Harpin is beast.
Lutharias: Lol
Ledaria Dawntreader: I'm sorry. I had something to write but it's coming off as rambling gibberish that barely makes sense to me
Harpin Cornwell: His two hander makes all the corpses in the yard
Lutharias: He got pretty damaged too. And things got a bit dicey for Amiyna when Gavin took that hit from the cannon.
Harpin Cornwell: Harpin only survived as he did because he was wearing the heaviest armor.
Lutharias: p much.
Rennali S. (GM): I'll play around with some of the numbers, then, and we can meet on Tuesday next week
if you guys want to play around with another dry run.
Lutharias: And that's what I'm saying -- if the Orcs had higher armor and a healer, they would have been rocking it.
ACTUALLY!!
HANG ON!
SOLUTION!
Rennali S. (GM): Hm?
Lutharias: VITA MORTUS CARAE!!!
Ledaria Dawntreader: I'll be around tuesday though I've got RP/raiding in FF14 at 9:30 moon goon time
(10:30 for me)
Rennali S. (GM): I'll be posting this on the feedback thread so we can look back on it, too.
Ledaria Dawntreader: cool
Lutharias: Have healing be restricted to a 1d(weapon stat) + intellect... and it consumes a certain amount of mana everytime it is used.
Same with mages and their spell attack rolls.
That way.
Healers can have high heal rolls, but only for a limited time.
Ledaria Dawntreader: only problem is, what happens when they reach 0 MP?
Lutharias: No more heals.
:)
Ledaria Dawntreader: no more attacks for mages either
Lutharias: So be careful how you spend your heals.
So be careful how you spend your attack spells.
Rennali S. (GM): Wait...
You might be on to something but...
Ledaria Dawntreader: that's a bad idea because melee are going to have an innate advantage in doing more
damage on average plus the defense (usually) to be in melee and not die in two-three hits
Rennali S. (GM): Have standard heals use up maybe like 1 mana point, same with standard attacks.
Lutharias: Yup.
Rennali S. (GM): Larger spells = Larger mana use.
BUT
BUT
Armor can also give BACK mana.
(Or something)
Lutharias: Possibly?
Rennali S. (GM): Like, you gain 1 mana back per round.
That way it uses mana, but you have the ability to regenerate mana, too.
Lutharias: We'd have to increase the amount of mana that standard heals/spells cost to like...
3 or something so as to be able to mitigate being able to just continuing to heal.
Rennali S. (GM): We can write it up and try it for the next dry run.
Lutharias: Or damage for the case of offensive magic users.
Rennali S. (GM): See if the numbers work.
Ledaria Dawntreader: That still gives a big advantage to non-magic users
Lutharias: Not really.
Okay
Explain.
Rennali S. (GM): Mana would be reduced for them as well.
Mana is across the board, so their standard attacks would cost 1 or 2 mana, too.
Ledaria Dawntreader: So are ALL attacks going to cost mana?
Rennali S. (GM): Yes
Lutharias: mana already is -- under the current system, Luther can't even use any abilities at all.
His mana pool is 0
Rennali S. (GM): Luther is a poop knight
Lutharias: Eh.. so is every other Knight.
And no.
I would not say all attacks cost mana.
Just spells.
(not abilities)
Ledaria Dawntreader: ok
ranger uses a ranged weapon
Lutharias: That way, just like in Baldur's Gate, when mages and healer run out of spells to use, they can jump into the fray with melee attacks.
Ledaria Dawntreader: they have the range and damage of a mage without having to worry about losing that
Lutharias: No no.
They won't have the damage of a mage.
Rennali S. (GM): Wait, what?
Ledaria Dawntreader: also
Lutharias: Mage using a spell gets a MASSIVE damage increase.
Rennali S. (GM): Why wouldn't all attacks cost mana, though?
Lutharias: No.
Rennali S. (GM): What would mitigate a ranger or a fighter?
Lutharias: Because swinging a staff doesn't cost mana.
Rennali S. (GM): Okay, so...
What?
Ledaria Dawntreader: stop basing balance ideas on baldur's gate
and AD&D
Lutharias: I'm not basing it off Baldur's Gate and AD&D, I haven't mentioned THAC0 once.
:P
Harpin Cornwell: >THACO
Ledaria Dawntreader: fucking THAC0
Harpin Cornwell: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE.AVI
I'VE HEARD THE STORIES
FUCK THAT NOISE
Lutharias: "To Hit Armor Class 0"
Rennali S. (GM): Wait, wait... So, melee attacks cost nothing but a spell would cost them mana.
But what good is a melee attack to a mage?
Lutharias: Yes, spells would cost them mana, BUT do increased damage.
It's better than nothing.
Or.
A mage could equip a ranged weapon.
LIKE A WAND!
EXPELLIARMUS!
Ledaria Dawntreader: see, that works
wand shoots a standard, mana-free standard attack at range
Lutharias: yes
Ledaria Dawntreader: -1 standard
Rennali S. (GM): Okay, we can work that in.
Ledaria Dawntreader: redundancy department of redundancy
we can shoot them like magic guns
pew pew pew
Lutharias: Once you understood how THAC0 works, it was actually the EASIEST system in all of D&D.
The problem... was just.. understanding it.
XD
Unless you were a math genius, there was like... no fucking way.
But yeah.
Ledaria Dawntreader: that was the problem with THAC0
Lutharias: Yup
Ledaria Dawntreader: it just made no sense on paper from a basic math logic
you had to like, work to understand the concept of it.
and once you got it, it made sense
Lutharias: Creature's AC = 0
DM: "What's your THAC0?"
Player: "6"
Lutharias:
DM: "You miss."
...Playing having rolled a 5.
...Didn't post that for some reason.
Rennali S. (GM): Alright. I'll post this on the forums and take the next few days to go over some stuff and see what I can come up with.
Thanks fellers.
Ledaria Dawntreader: no problem
hope we were of some help
instead of just a source of confusion
Rennali S. (GM): No, no. This actually makes plenty of sense now.
